Damien Katz

I avoided moving to the bay area for 10 years for the same reason. I finally came here in 2006 just to be closer to all the people I actually worked with.

What I found surprised me. There are a lot of tech people in the area here. If you are an average developer, it is easy to get lost in the crowd.

If you are an extraordinary developer, though, you will find that living in a place with so much infrastructure devoted to your profession really raises your game. Not to mention the fact that you can have coffee with many of the top developers in your field any time you want.

You can find great developers anywhere, but in my experience, the concentration here really makes the move worth it.

Anyway, if you do come out, drop me a line and I'll have coffee with you. :-)

-Charles

um - not to imply that I'm a top developer in your field. just being friendly. :)

I'm a tech professional in Atlanta but I spend a lot of time in the Bay Area. I can certainly understand what you mean about joining the conversation, and the culture is very different - there's a huge "feel" about the Bay Area that's hard to ignore. That being said, Asheville will be my next place of residence - it's all about what's important to you. If technology is important to you, the Bay is one of the best places (obviously). If quality of life is what's important to you, I think Asheville has an edge - the green living, people, and small town but not isolated conveniences are things you can't ignore, and while the Bay has some of this, it's still a very crowded place with a din of life that you can't turn off.

It certainly is a good time for a great deal on a home right now. I commute on BART from the East Bay to San Francisco.

My best advice is: research schools to decide on the community you move to. We have some of the worst public schools a city away from some of the best schools. Don't rule out private schools, nearly all of them are top notch. The good: access to peers, opportunity and the weather. The bad: cost of living. Let me know if you have any questions.

Let the decision be all about your kids.

I grew up in new england. I moved to the SF Bay area in '95. It's beautiful out there, the weather is nice. Lots of interesting people, lots of tech. From the perspective of someone from the northeast, though, there isn't really much in the way of seasons out there, and I ended up feeling like I could blink and ten years might go by, due to getting caught up in the constant fast pace. That kind of freaked me out, so I moved back to the Boston area. There's a lot of technology folks here as well. And the weather helps keep you honest :-)

Dave, we have two seasons: pleasant and rainy :) I do miss midwestern autumn though...

As others have mentioned, the real factor you should think about is your kids and their education. For starters, this means you should not even consider San Francisco itself. Start looking in the east bay (berkeley and some parts of northeast oakland), mid-peninsula (along the palo alto, mountain view, los altos, cupertino strip), or the south bay near the western foothills (los gatos, saratoga, campbell, and a few parts of san jose). If you know where you will be working then you can figure out reasonable commute distances and start plotting from there. Find out where the good schools are and focus your search in these areas. Private school is an option, but you will already be paying property taxes on a very expensive home and the "good school district" premium you pay to get the home will probably keep its value when you decide to sell; I would personally start by looking at choices in good school districts and only fall back to private school if you can't find anything you like in a good school district.

In this case; screw couchdb. Do what's best for your family. If that somehow helps couchdb then sure, but that should be a bonus, not a consequence (in the "tradeoff" sense of it). Families outlive any technology.

I agree with Johan.

I am living up in Mississauga, Canada and have often thought about making the trek down to California. Visited in January with my Fiancee and loved it. However, I think you are doing pretty damn good where you are. Couchdb seems to be picking up steam each day. What do you think you will truly accomplish there that you can't do where you are. If you always think the grass is greener, it will be and you will find yourself constantly moving from place place.

Anyway, just do whats right for you and your family. You will know what feels right. Love the couchdb by the way! Awesome job.

We moved away from the bay area for family reasons. Expensive housing, bad schools, and child hostile settings encouraged us to move to a less intense place. It's pretty awesome, however, in most other regards if you don't have (or plan to have) children. The proximity to the movers and shakers is pretty empowering as well.

However, many noted successful open source programmers do quite well not living in the bay area. However, if you plan to start a company, you couldn't do better (despite what Paul Graham says).

"The world is flat", haven't you heard? It does not matter where you live, you can have a successful career/startup. Believe me, for the sake of your family you don't want to live in the Silicon Valley. Save on every dollar you spend by living somewhere where it is best to raise a family and you will have a lot more time to work on CouchDB or whatever else you want to venture in. Now, I can vouch whether or not Asheville is the place for you, but the US is a big country so I am sure you can find a good fit. I myself live close to Atlanta (100 Miles) and I enjoy the quiet and slow pace life of the South, but can pop in easily to ATL for travel, entertainment or hanging out with the startup crowd.

Hello Daniel,

Northern Cal is at least as good as Ashville area if not better. I used to drive to Chimney Rock often during weekends during my employment at MCI Systemhouse in the RTP.

Checkout Sebastopol in Northern California which is just a tad west of Santa Rosa and closer to the ocean. I live Milpitas but I do not like the mechanical urban life here. I always end-up going up north. I will prbably end-up moving there in late May.

Petaluma is also a good option .. your child will like the drive to Bodega Bay.

Enough advice .. whatever you do for living or wherever you end up living, family always comes first .. but you already knew that!

--arshad

Hi Damien,

the Bay Area is an exciting place for professionals in our field - and raising a family works just great ;-) Got two young kids - 5 and 3.

Ping me if you need specific pointers... You're coming to the ErlangFactory, aren't you? I'll be there as well (15 min drive from where I live) - looking forward to meeting you face to face ;-)

Cheerio, Harry.

I love the Bay Area and can't imagine being a software developer anywhere else. I don't have any kids myself but I really hope you can find good schools, neighborhood etc...

I did however, have two working parents with their own ambitions and hobbies whom I respect tremendously. I think that by pursuing your own dreams you'll be a great role model for your children.

I moved here in 2003. I don't regret it at all. I regret thinking once that I should move away and trying it. That was silly.

I live in Marin (San Rafael).

Here I am able to meet people, see things, do things, and have opportunities that are simply not possible from so far away.

The SFBay isn't the center of the universe to be sure but I find that eventually, during the course of a year, almost no matter who I'm working with or talking to will be here at some point for a conference, meeting, etc.

Now, remember, it's very, very expensive here relative to many places. Do not gloss over this fact. I made some bad assumptions when I moved about cost of living.

But, right now, housing is depressed in many areas so there hasn't been a time like this in CA real estate in a very long time. Some areas aren't depressed at all though and some only a little compared to before the current economic climate.

Anyway, let me know if you have any questions Damien. You have my email.

Cheers,
Kent

I suggest you move somewhere near Hamburg (Germany).
We have four seasons here, perfect infrastructure for both programmers and family. North Sea and Baltic Sea are near by. Hardly any genetically modified food around, etc, etc.
It is really a great place to live!

We're called SILICON VALLEY FOR A REASON. Yes there are a lot of technological advantages in the bay area. but that's not all we are!!! People who've just visited here have it all wrong. It's a great place to live and make a family. People who live here have great pride for the bay. You don't HAVE to live in the bigger cities, like San Jose or in San Francisco!!! There ARE SMALL TOWNS around here too that are great to raise a family in. We have everything here. The beaches. The mountains. Napa Valley is just a short jaunt away, so many different places to visit and see. I will never move back to the midwest.

Ever thought about lovely Austin, Texas? No state income tax, large research university, great happy hours, quiet, walkable neighborhoods, and more.

I'm in a similar situation. I'm a federal contractor based in DC, but I work out of my house in the Midwest. I think it has adveresly affected my career and my ability to be more effective. But, I have a young daughter and we have good schools here. We also own a house that would cost 4 times as much if we lived on the coast, plus I'd have to deal with a physical commute.

I enjoy the San Francisco Bay area for its concentration of people eager to excel in their particular crafts. Nearby farms a fishing grounds create creative chefs out of fresh ingredients. A supportive arts scene creates new compositions of music, ideas applied to canvas, or new words scribbled in notebooks from a local cafe. It's also the home of top quality universities in Stanford and UC Berkeley, which has fostered many new ideas in technical research and society.

You'll have access to peers in various fields always seeking out new approaches to the problems they encounter every day. Some school districts, and especially private school programs, include very involved parents interested in their child's development. Gwendolyn and Roseanna will be surrounded by new ideas, viewpoints, and craftsmen in many walks of life, providing a very interesting way to grow up aware of life's many options.

The tech is good too. Sure you can fall into the echo chamber, but it's up to you to seek out the crowds you appreciate and not get caught up in the noise surrounding the pursuit of new technologies.

I moved to California from Chicago in '99. I lived in the bay area while I worked for Yahoo. I now live in Santa Monica where I work for Google. There's part of me that would love to go back to Chicago, but the opportunities here are hard to beat.

Some of the things you'll miss:
* Seasons.
* Large grocery stores.
* A decent decent sized home.
* Cheaper cost of living.
* A case of soda being 24 cans, not 12.
* Seasons. Really, that one is the strange.

That said, I'd say go for it. At the end of your days, it's the things you didn't do that you'll regret.

Again, I did it 10 years ago, and I'm still here.

I hear it's a good place to be gay.

What gives with people who are not Californian who move to CA?? As a native to the bay area, I can not believe how non-native folks can not notice the change of our seasons. It is so obvious to those of us who grew up here! We can even tell you when we're having earthquake weather. We are definitely in Spring in case you all need some help!

Each town in the Bay Area has its own culture & pros & cons. The public schools in Cupertino are some of the best in the nation.

I don't have kids so I live in SF, which is such a unique city (more european than american) and difficult for many americans to deal with.

The tech side of life in the Bay Area is totally great and so easy to get involved in the open source community.

Life's short so best not to have any regrets ...

"As a native to the bay area, I can not believe how non-native folks can not notice the change of our seasons."
I think most people mean "real" seasons. If you grow up anywhere in the midwest or east coast, the seasons are quite different. One misses getting dumped on by snow or a real storm (not the drizzle SF people call a storm).

As to the rest, I've lived in a variety of cities. I mostly agree with Bill (and live in chicago right now). Some other ...

Pros of the bay area:
Can ride a motorcycle year round
Lots of good outdoor activities available
Multiple airports (if you have to travel quite a bit). SFO, SJC, and oaktown.
Decent food (although that tends to be good with any large and diverse population)
Ethnically diverse

Cons of the bay area:
Seems to be more egotistical / concerned about status / money.
Public transportation is hit and miss (depending on what area you live in).
Earthquakes - TBH I have issues living anywhere that mother nature decides to take a giant poo regularly. Tornado alley, hurricane areas, earthquake areas.... Scares the crap out of me that someday "the big one" will hit.
Horrible drivers....but i think most people think where they grew up tend to be better drivers :)

It will be quite a balancing act once you have more outlets for your technical creativity to balance that with family life.

Damien,

I don't live in California myself, although I know the region. Actually I live in far away Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. But I think you could rephrase your question to:

Why not?

What's the worse thing that could happen to you? If you don't like it, can you just rollback?

I don't have kids myself, but I'm sure I'd be very concerned about them in this prospect of moving to another place. On the other hand, even if things don't turn out as well as you'd expect, probably you'll all learn a lot. And that's probably a good thing in itself.

If you and your wife are seriously considering this move, why not give it a try? I thing it's a good thing to listen to our instincts and that's probably what you did when you created CouchDB. Now we're all grateful for that. Maybe it's just another important moment to listen to your instincts again. And maybe what could go wrong is not all that bad that you shouldn't at least try. And let's not forget that the good parts of this move may also be much better than you'd expect. It's hard to know without trying.

Best wishes for you and your family.

I grew up in western Oregon, but moved to the Bay Area in 1999 and stayed for several years before coming back north to Portland. In general, I'd say that the culture, access to technology and business knowledge, and weather are all, as others have suggested, top-notch.

Living in San Francisco in my early 20s was great. However, I couldn't imagine living there with kids -- the hour-long commutes, housing costs, and pervasive sprawl along the main 101/280 corridor just don't fit with my ideas of good family living. (I'll admit that I may have a different perspective on this than most -- I grew up on acreage in the country. I value the walkability and bikability of my neighborhood at least as highly as its reputation or home values.)

One potential compromise might be to move out to the west coast, but not straight into S.F., Palo Alto, or San Jose. Even from Portland or Seattle, you can fly to a daytime meeting in San Francisco and back in a day without much trouble. Alternately, as others have suggested, you might look at some of the coastal areas north of the Bay, which would put you within an easy drive of the city without having to deal with quite as much insanity.

Roseville CA and Folsom CA both sit half-way between the bay and lake tahoe. IMHO they are the best place to raise a family and still be able to connect. Schools, parks, neighborhoods first rate for $250-$500k. Comparable lifestyle (house, neighborhood, school) in sv ~ $1.5-$2mil.

Your extended family is important, to you and your kids. Where are your and your wife's parents? Your sibs, cousins, nieces and nephews? Your buds from high school and college?

Once you move you're probably gone for a long time. Maybe forever. The family stuff isn't everything, but don't discount it.

I am not sure what happened to my last post, but looks like Chrome crashed on me before I could click on the Post button. I lived in the Bay Area for 10 years - moved in before the dot com boom and moved out after the bust. I must say over all I really miss the Bay Area. Here are the pros:

1- Best place if you are in the software business. I have worked in other so called hi-tech hubs but nothing compares to SV. Boston may come close.
2- The weather, the people, the cultural diversity, techiness is awesome. Where but in SV would they have Fry's a store as large as Costo dedicated to things for the technophile.
3- Lots of things to do. Beaches, mountains, sking, wine country and a great city like SF all close by.

Here are the cons:
1- Housing price is outrageous. Only other place I can think with ridiculous housing is Manhattan. Most people are shocked at how little they get for the money. A 1500 sq.ft house in Mountain View/Palo Alto/Los Altos area is going to be $1 million plus. And I am talking about a 40 year old house that needs some TLC.
2- The commute sucks. I chose to get a smaller more expensive home so my commute would be less than 1 hour.
3- The culture tends to be workaholic. It can really affect the family. That is the main reason I moved. My family was not happy about not seeing me for weeks. You have to set a goal that your family is important and set some time aside for them.

I think it all depends what end goal you have in mind.

By the way CouchDB looks awesome. I can see it replacing MS Sharepoint, Lotus Notes/Dominos. JavaScript, HTML, CSS - that is all I need.

Thanks

Moin

I love California, although I have never been there. Which areas would you recommend for a holiday????

thanks

alejandro

There is a tremendous amount of places to go in Ca on a holiday. My recommendations in no particular order are:

San Fran - Golden Gate Park, Fisherman's Wharf
Greater San Fran - Drive across GG bridge to Sausalito and hit Muir Beach while you are on that side.
Napa area: wine tasting
Monterey: Aquarium, 17 mile drive
Drive Highway 1 down to San Luis Obispo (stop at Hearst Castle on the way)
visit Solvang
LA: Huntington Library, Getty, Hollyweird, Chinatown, Venice Beach, Disneyland
San Diego: San Diego Zoo, Wild Animal Park, Sea World, Legoland (never been there myself)
Sierra Mountains: Kings Canyon/Seq. Ntl park, Yosemete (must see), If you are driving 395 along the Sierra's stop at Indian Wells Brewery just north of the intersection between 395 and 14.
Lake Tahoe - most of the interesting parts are on the Nevada side but as long as your on 395 heading north.... Plus you can check out Reno as well.

If you are not vacationed out at this point keep heading north to Lava Beds and Mt. Shasta. I also forgot to mention you could have hiked into the Golden Trout Wilderness as long as you were driving past Bishop on 395.

These are just a few.

As far as living there goes it is a toss up. Family life can be ok depending on where you live. The biggest problem for me was the commute. One hour commutes are standard. I even had a 2 hour commute for awhile(each way). I used to collapse on Saturdays. In general it is not a very practical place to live. However, if you love the place you will find a way to make it work. The weather and geography are great. On the other hand, the schools are quite bad. When I moved from Florida to California, my kids twiddled their thumbs for a year while the school caught up to their level. This was in Oak Park which is an exclusive area. I can imagine what some of the other schools are like.

California is not a place for people who are strongly interested in "community supported way of living".People who move to California notice that the people are not so friendly and are not eager to make friends. To those people who prefer to like to spend time with their family rather then sit around and talk with their neighbors, It does have many advantages. The climate, The beaches, Job opportunities and more.

Ehh.. I can see why work wise youd want to go, and Im sure it would be much more fun for you in that environment.. but.. I am soo not a fan of Cali, though northern cali is far better than southern.. I lived in San Diego for 4 yrs.. did not like the people.. and as far as raising kids.. I think southern cal is the worst place to do so. San Fran is a whole lot better I must say, though Ive never lived there, just visited so I cant comment. Ashville is beautiful indeed, and from my own experience, moving to CA from FL.. I REAAAALLY missed the green.. the grass.. more than you can imagine, I even missed the humidity a little bit.. the dry sun is just not the same at all.

Ehh.. I can see why work wise youd want to go, and Im sure it would be much more fun for you in that environment.. but.. I am soo not a fan of Cali, though northern cali is far better than southern.. I lived in San Diego for 4 yrs.. did not like the people.. and as far as raising kids.. I think southern cal is the worst place to do so. San Fran is a whole lot better I must say, though Ive never lived there, just visited so I cant comment. Ashville is beautiful indeed, and from my own experience, moving to CA from FL.. I REAAAALLY missed the green.. the grass.. more than you can imagine, I even missed the humidity a little bit.. the dry sun is just not the same at all.

Thanks @Jerry - I'll follow your California holiday tips!

I grew up in new england. I moved to the SF Bay area in '95. It's beautiful out there, the weather is nice. I love the Bay Area and can't imagine being a software developer anywhere else. I don't have any kids myself but I really hope you can find good schools, neighborhood etc...