Damien Katz

Your atheistic foundation is flawed. Once you realize the truth of the Ninja Real Ultimate Power, you can no longer deny the existence of forces beyond the mortal realm.



Time for a re-think. Or not.

It seems to me that the hostility towards atheists stems in large part from efforts by some to impose their philosophy on others through the court system.

E.g. that guy who sued because of "under God" in the pledge of allegiance.

In general atheists are not trying to impose any beliefs on anyone, they are trying to *stop* beliefs being imposed on themselves and others.

If "under God" was just a historical hangover, I could understand people being annoyed at such challenges, but it is becoming clear that there is a strong resurgence of christian fundamentalism in the US, to the point where high court judges are expected [by Bush admin] to assert a believe in God and recognize Him as the source of all law...

Generally athiests don't claim to know the truth, but neither can they accept what appears to be a lie.

"E.g. that guy who sued because of "under God" in the pledge of allegiance."

That's ironic. The pledge was added in the 50's to counter the Godless communists. If this guy is guilty of imposing his beliefs on others, then so are the people who inserted it into the pledge in the first place.

But logically the absence of the "under God" line in the pledge isn't an endorsement of atheism any more than the absence of "hardworking" means we are pledging to be lazy. But by placing the words "under God" in the pledge both the pledge and the pledge-taker are implicitly affirming a belief in a montheistic religious system.

I think it's all about fear, Damien.
I've seen the same reaction from the right-wingers visa vis what they call the liberals.

All they have is their belief system and if someone challenges it, in the absence of any factual support for said belief system, they lash out.

In short, a cool, smart, hip, atheist like your own bad self scares the crap out of them right-winger, christian evangelist lovin' fundamentaists.

My advice is to keep on keeping on...
Take it for what it is worth.

The one place in the US Constitution where the founding fathers could have chosen to require an individual to acknowledge God is the Presidential oath of office, Article II, Section 1. They deliberately chose not to, because even though they knew that no conceivable President in their time would refuse to swear an oath to God (even Jefferson, who was a Deist but not a member of any Christian denomination and was the architect of the principle of separation of church and state), they realized that to do so would be an imposition of beliefs. And so, they wrote the clause about the oath in exactly these words...

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

The 1950s-era Congress ignored this clear precedent by formally adding the words "under God" to the pledge. Prior to that point, the pledge was neutral about religion, and nobody was complaining about it! Until the Knights of Columbus, lobbied Congress to add "under God" to the pledge, nobody thought that the fact that those words weren't there was an imposition of Atheist beliefs!

The fact that courts have ruled that people can not be required to recite the pledge is irrelevant to this. Congress imposed the beliefs of the religious majority on the atheist minority by requiring that in order to participate in a congressionally-approved ritual of patriotism and citizenship, one must acknowledge that the nation is "under God". The fellow who challenged those words in court was fighting to remove the imposition of beliefs on others, not the other way around.

-rich

You know, this whole "I'm a victim because when I say I'm xyz I get jumped on and it doesn't happen to anyone else" bit is very very closed minded.



You can say that you bet if you were a christian, muslim, etc... that it wouldn't happen, but you're wrong. I've been jumped on so many times for saying I believe in God. Back when I was still a Christian, it was even worse. Do you realize that in many athiests eyes(and people of other faiths like Wicca) that saying you are a Christian, irrespective of what sect, irrespective of what you actually believe, is the same as admitting guilt to every crime ever comitted by any Christian anywhere throughout all of history? When I first got on IRC back in '94, I made the mistake of saying I was a Christian. I was immediately booted and banned from a channel on IRC. That's all I said. It was a natural extension of the conversation as well, I was not there trying to convert anyone. I was PM'd by a wiccan and told to find a "better religion" and something about not willing to tolerate people who kill witches.



I'm not a Christian anymore, so I can say the problem has lessened. But damned if I'm not in for it with some people for simply identifying myself as a thiest. Once that happens, I get self righteous pious arguments about how it's better not to live in fantasy land. Usually, this is from people who believe themselves open minded and tolerant, so it's pretty clear whose living in fantasy land.

Anyways, point is, there are intolerant pricks who can't live and let live on any given side of any given argument. I don't know why, I only know it's the truth.

Well, I came here for the good Vonage bitch session, but I decided to check out the rest of this site. I'm not Christian, and I'm not Atheist, I'm Pagan. I have seen so much biggotry from those that claim to be of Christian faith, it boils my blood. I can be dating someone, religion comes up, I finally tell them to stop badgering me about going to church with them and why. They break it off completely as if I were some leaper. In a way I can't blame them because they don't generally know any better, but at the same time, we all make our own choices, and some people base their choices on what they were brainwashed to believe is the truth.

I went through all the phases, and settled for what fit me the best. Christianity does not by a long shot, and Atheistic views don't do it for me by just as much. I'm a much happier person now than when I was Christian, and I'm glad I left it behind.

I also want to add in that I completely respect all other religions, or non-religions, but sometimes they make it so hard. I'd like to say I'm glad you are sticking with your views of the world. I think more people should instead of trying to be like everyone else.

Well Damien I don't know why you get attacked for stating your atheism, especially on your own blog of all places. However your atheism seems somewhat important to you, in describing yourself, otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned. Do you state your political affiliation, your stance on abortion or other controversial topics? The more you talk about the topic (religion in this case), the more it will draw attention. Religion is supposedly the reason they've been fighting in the middle east since the beginning of time, and no one wants to say they're just fighting over land in actual fact. Do you feel like Jodie Foster's character in the movie Contact, not getting to be a part of the US space program because she doesn't believe in God? There's always Japan....

Religion. As if I needed another reason to hate people.

I alwasy felt that religion-the bad stuff=good ideas. Why the good ideas got corrupted and why people fixate on the bad stuff is weird.

Mark Morford today is good about just this subject, and is the reason I am commenting!

I can understand not believing in God, but dissing the Flying Spaghetti Monster???? :)

Seriously, great writeup. You could pretty well
s/atheist/agnostic/g and it would match the way I feel about things...

Jonathan, Richard, Damien, et al,

Regarding the tangent of the whole separation of church and state thing, see the audio archive of This American Life at http://www.thislife.org/pages/descriptions/05/290.html at 24 minutes 42 seconds... or just skip to 30:30 where they run down a post-constitution history of church and state, with lines erroding chiefly due to the cold war.

Ha Ha...You're an existentialist!

We're all free from any supernatural Boogeyman (and/or Boogeymen), everyone dies, there is no meaning to anything so you may as well do things that make you happy. Be careful though, people who realize that they are free scare the shit out of everyone else.

To paraphrase George Hanson: "...don't ever tell anybody they're not free otherwise they're gonna get real busy killing 'n maiming to prove to you that they are."

How about you state that you are a devout atheist? I think the way you describe yourself that would fit.

Rock on with your bad non-believing self, Damien. I'm as sick and tired of the resurgeance of religion in politics and everyday life as anyone.

Not all Christians try to impose their religious views on others, but pretty much anyone who does is Christian (and usually Catholic to boot).

But that's not to say I automatically hate someone who states they're a Catholic. To the contrary, unlike many religious people, I base my views of a person on how they act, not what box they check under "Religion".

Karl Marx said, "Religion is the opiate of the people." How true. How very true. Opiates are very addictive both mentally and physically. Religion can become the same way.

Having something to believe in is good. It gives people hope when things are not going well. The problem many seem to have is seperating hope from reality. My wife is a good example. I love her to death and support her no matter what. She is very religious. I am not at all. We cannot have kids - there are medical issues preventing it for both of us. She has been holding on the hope that her prayers will be answered for over nine years now.

Her father (I love him as well), keeps telling me that I just need to pray hard and it will happen. He is not very subtle about it either. He also chides me for being a volunteer fire fighter and EMT on Sundays. Fire and sickness does not take a seveth day of rest. In fact, most of my worst cases happen on Sundays.

In my opinion he has become addicted to his religion. It is all that matters to him. He is only involved in the church or other religious activities. He preaches his beliefs all the time when helping others. Granted, some might say my wife and I are addicted to EMS, but we help others and all we preach is for them to take better care of themselves and to try to help them break their addictions (many drug addicts).

Religion ropes people in and they can be swayed to believe whatever a charismatic preacher wants them to believe. Look at the Middle East. How many people believe we are the "evil empire" even though all they ever got from us was aid? I realize many terrible things have happened over there to the people, but in many cases their own people are doing it - and in the name of religion. Look down in Texas right now (Crawford). There are anti-gay Baptists saying that IEDs are Gods way of punishing America for harboring gays and lesbians. PLEASE give me a break. If God is such a wonderful being, why would he/she tolerate intolerance or hatred?

Every Halloween a local Baptist church enters a float in the Halloween Parade. The float protests abortion with grotesque pictures that would never be allowed to be shown on television. They push flyers with these pictures into children's hands. They swing around a simulated aborted fetus with blood and guts falling out of it (usually this is done by the minister).

While I don't support communism, Karl Marx had an interesting take on religion. If you have not figured it out, I am basically an atheist. The interesting twist is that I basically follow the Ten Commandments in life. Also the Golden Rule. You don't have to be religious to be a good person. You just have to be compasionate, caring, responsible and loving to your fellow man, the environment, and other creatures that roam the earth.

Alex, I think it's hilarious (in a very sad way) that your father in law gets upset that you fight fires and save people's lives on Sundays. Does he think fires don't burn and people don't get injured on Sundays? If more people did that sort of thing rather than going to church on Sunday, maybe they'd make the world a better place. You're certainly doing your part, what's he doing?

What I find funny is that most atheists I've met are actually very good people. They don't lie, cheat, steal, or hurt people, and generally are very generous and good to their fellow man. Assuming there is a God for a moment... I don't doubt for a minute that any truly good person who happens to be an atheist will go to heaven, probably long before many so-called devoutly religious people.

In the end, it's not what you believe that matters, it's what you do.

@Nate: Your last remark reminds me of my favorite Thomas Jefferson quote:

"I never told my own religion nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. I am satisfied that yours must be an excellent religion to have produced a life of such exemplary virtue and correctness. For it is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be judged."

We could certainly use a few intellectual giants like Thomas Jefferson in public life today, as opposed to the current crop of anti-intellectuals.

I agree with Nate's first paragraph about Alex's father in law, and I'll even do one better... If the movie Contact doesn't do it for ya, how about Alec Baldwin's speech in Malice?
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/moviespeechmalice.html

But as for atheists looking out for their fellow man more than theists, that has not been true in my experience. Besides not having faith, cynicism is a lot higher (not always a bad thing).

Here's another voice in support of your right to your beliefs.

Two points:
Does the lady protest too much, as they say? I've grown a bit tired of complaints of "Persecution of Christians" these days. At least where I live (midwest) where the vast majority of people are nominally Christian (Hey, be careful not to ask how that translates into deeds) the overwhelming force of cultural and peer pressure is directed against non-Christians, most particularly non-theists. It seems to be kind of a straw-man to provide cover for a Christian cultural offensive.

As many gays seem to be more aware of self and others, by virtue of the barriers they need to overcome to "come out", so also do many of the atheists I've met seem to be more aware and concerned with deeper philosophical and spiritual questions. For most have had to reject the easy answers handed to them. They seem better-enabled to exercise the rights and duties of citizenship than people who seem to accept a very simplistic "just because (God made it that way)" explanation for all manner of things. In extreme cases, this justifies the killing and subjugation of others. Of course, this end result occurs in a minority of cases, but the underlying dynamic of presumed absolute right and knowledge is there.

Anyway.... Love the Jefferson quote.

Damien, I guess I just got burned out on the religion discussion years ago. I'm sorry, but not even remotely surprised that you got negative responses. We are the minority. But on the bright side, it's a growing minority.

Have you seen this before? It's a number guessing game: http://www.amblesideprimary.com/ambleweb/mentalmaths/guessthenumber.html. I guessed 61727, and it got it right! Pretty neat.

(warning very opinionated)

as Jonathan Ellis stated

but they had no write to take "under God" out of the pledge of allegiance.

the reason the United states of America was even founded was for Christianity pretty much "One nation under god" its still on our money...but for how long?

i believe that because of retarded shit like that is why over half of our kids today are failures(they took god out of public school) Proven fact(after 1950s) when they took religion out of school, grades went down, stupidity went up as did hostility(also a product of rap music)
i was brought up in public school so this is from that point of view...

and this is all my opinion. not forcing anything on anyone.

Don't get me wrong you can believe what you want. but please don't take god out of the rest of the united states. this is not directed to the creator of this site, but to those atheist that are now running our govenment with one thing in mind($$$$) but then again doesn't every one?

Hi people, Did you have a happy Halowen? !!